My last post consciously about the place of women in the church or family was back in October of 2007. The title of this post, therefore, refers to a past event, not to something that just happened. I didn’t quit intentionally, but Wayne’s struggles to maintain the Complegalitarian blog put me to thinking about why I laid down my sword. And then, having found words for the reason, I thought I’d share them here.
I hold a committed Egalitarian position, but only after long struggle and doubts. I believe every single verse of scripture supports the right of God to gift a woman to hold any position in the church, and to expect her to use those gifts – but that confidence came only after 20 years of searching. There was a long period where wish I’d been more honest about my doubts about certain verses, but we learn as we go. I’ll be honest that I still have doubts about how a Christian marriage should look. I’ve watched Complementarian arguments abused to hurt wives, but I still cannot declare my position on the key verses with assurance.
I first came to hold Egalitarianism in the church and in the home because I met several high quality women after they’d been destroyed either by their own churches or with those churches’ explicit approval. These churches crushed women beyond repair, women who had served those same churches faithfully for years. None of these much-loved sisters of mine will ever be fully functioning people again, because of what was done to them in the name of scripture.
The best bible teacher I ever knew was disallowed from teaching some of the best students because of her sex and theirs – and mine. I was beside myself. I was expected to find a male teacher, but there were none. I lived in a town of 3000, and to all appearances, none of the men there had the first appetite for historical doctrine. I wanted desperately to have a spiritual father, but it was not to be.
So pain drove me into the scriptures with passion. I needed to know what God would have His churches do and I jumped in with both feet. I was also conscious of the need for a lot of caution. I knew my strong prejudices, so I took it slow. I did not declare a thing until I felt like it could withstand every honest examination. Some arguments I made confidently in 1986, some waited until 2006, but eventually I felt like I understood the subject to my satisfaction.
And now I’ve quit.
Why on Earth would I do that?
Women are still being hurt, and students are still being denied the solid meat of good teaching. I’ve not quit caring about those facts and other like them. So why have I quit fighting the good fight?
It’s very simple. I attend a Complementarian church filled with Complementarian brothers and sisters, and I love them.
The people who fill my church every week are not lying Pharisees anxiously seeking a chance to shatter the next innocent woman who stumbles into their grasp. They’re not Complementarian saints crawling across glass to build up the weaker vessels in their lives, either. They’re brothers and sisters just like me, pursuing the Lord with the doctrine they’ve received and the portion of the Spirit they’ve been given. I’ve come to respect and love them, and to treasure my relationships with them.
I will oppose them the day they destroy a innocent woman, but they’re not like that. Christ lives in their hearts, and they consistently build up the women in their lives. To go to war against these brothers and sisters would drive a wedge between us. I won’t divide from them for believing something wrong while they’re doing the main thing right.
There’s a mistake among legalists the world over. They plant hedges around their laws. They believe it’s wrong to drink blood, so they become vegetarians. They believe it’s wrong to become drunk, so they eschew magazines that advertise vodka. There’s nothing wrong with hedges, of course. If a man decides to forego steak and The Week Magazine to make sure he’s obeying the spirit of God’s law, I’ll stand back and let him.
It gets tricky, though.
If, as a committed Egalitarian, I pitch my case to my church with all the passion in my heart, I’m going to damage relationships. My brothers and sisters cannot all handle my freedom to be Egalitarian. Even though I am Egalitarian before God and with a clean conscience, I risk severing bonds of love with my brothers and sisters. More than that, I risk creating a faction and splitting the body of Christ.
If I do that, I’ve trampled a Law to protect a Hedge.
The Law is that I must be of one mind with my brother, and build him up in love. The Law is that my brother must protect and love his sisters. My fear, the fear that teaches me to put up a Hedge, is that my Complementarian brother might feel licensed to hurt his sister. In trying to head off a hurt that might never be dealt, I would have to alienate brothers. If I break the Law of Love to protect the Hedge of Doctrine, I’ve become the man in the wrong.
Not so many years ago I’d have been willing to split a church over Egalitarianism. I’d have felt justified by the remnant who sided with me. Paul would have rebuked me, though, and did so in Romans 14. (We all really need to know Romans 14 the same way we know 1 Corinthians 13. If you have a heart for doctrine, there’s no better chapter to test its reins.) But Romans 14 is not really about the Egalitarian debate, so I’m going to look at 1 Cor 11.
1Cor 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on [her] head because of the angels.
I believe most Egals would agree the gist of Paul’s message throughout this passage is that the woman has the right to determine for herself whether, for the sake of her husband, to cover her head. Paul’s argument (in my favorite assessment) is that neither the woman nor the man should cover their heads, but if the man feels he must cover his head, then the woman is free to cover hers for his sake.
I see Paul’s Romans 14 argument in full force here. Paul is saying that the spiritually strong, the doctrinally upright, the woman purely committed to prayer, should pray with her head uncovered. But if she feels she should pray with her head covered, then she is not disgracing her Lord. Paul just finished saying 6 verses earlier that anyone praying with covered head does exactly that!
(Comps, I understand your contrary view of Paul’s statement 6 verses earlier, but please indulge me here.)
Paul tells his brothers and sisters in Corinth exactly what he told their brothers and sisters in Rome. Do not cause each other to stumble for meat, or holy days, or prayer shawls, even though disagreement in ANY of these things might be deeply offensive to either party.
I’ve already gone on way too long here, and I hope you’ll forgive me.
There’s an inherent risk in intellectual debate. We might begin to think the debate matters. It doesn’t. Knowledge builds egos, when we need to be building love. Building with love is to building with knowledge as building with stone is to building with wood. When the crisis comes, correct doctrine won’t shelter any of us from the fire, no matter which of us is right. And yet love will shelter Egals and Comps equally.
Paul counseled those who freely ate meat not to trip up those who could only eat vegetables, but he did not tell everyone to become vegetarians. He didn’t even tell the omnivores to give up trying to build up the vegetarians in faith and maturity. It’s for God to decide what He means for a church or a family to look like, but when He sits to decide who’s “right,” He’ll be evaluating actions for love, not theories for leaks.
I remain an Egalitarian, and happily explain why every time I’m asked. I remain a brother first, though. And I trust my brothers to remain brothers as well.
I’m a lot happier this way.
Wow…this was really good. Thanks for sharing this, codepoke!
I agree that once you decide to attend a comp. church, then you should not be “a bull in a china shop”. You can still choose to live an egal marriage and explain your understandings as appropriate, e.g, when asked.
There are many reasons to choose a church to attend and its stance on comp/egal issues, if it even has made any, is simply one of them.
Great post, Codepoke!
I think it may take me a while to stop trying to convert men from their belief in their authority over their wives….
I admire you for feeling the pain of the hurt women and for being willing to speak up if a man abuses the authority he believes God has given him over his wife. You can be Jesus to that marriage, standing up for the weaker.
Great job! The law of love is working in your life for sure. If we all acted as you have, ,I believe we would all be standing together. Your dedication to stand up for women, when it is needed, and all other times to work together in love is commendable. Bravo!
I know where you’re coming from. I am a strongly egal woman, (by both biblical conviction and by experience of abuse working in a semi-egal church in a comp denomination. I tread carefully. I will not compromise my own position, but I have no more right to demand that others reach my conclusions than they have to demand that I agree with them. i preach and teach (when asked to) but I determine to do so, not with subservience, but with a gentle and quiet spirit. God has gifted me and called me to training, i feel keenly His call on my life to particular areas of ministry — day by day I lay it down and give it back to Him as I actively wait for Him to open whatever doors of service He chooses. And I recognise that it is MY issue, not, all the time, everyone else’s issue. I’m not pretending it’s always easy, but hey, in real life we “agree to disagree” on all sorts of things. Thanks, CP, I understand what you’re saying
Such a wonderfully welcoming acceptance. Thank you. I was concerned people might hear me saying the truth didn’t matter enough to fight for, but your responses make me very happy. Thank you.
I should probably say a word or two about how I chose my church. It is the closest truly Christian church to my home. That was my entire selection criteria. The comp/egal issue is not the only doctrine on which we differ, but the love is real. And the benefits of driving less than one mile to be with the people I love are just as real.
I’ve had a lot of fun finding out how important doctrine is and isn’t. It feels a lot like living out the book of Philippians.
Great thoughts Codepoke! And I love your Blog.
More than half of my in person friends and church members are complementarian, hierarchalist minded, traditional, etc. Some have been friends most of my Christian life. And nope, I don’t spar with them. :0) So, I relate to your concerns.
However, as a woman, I cannot quit, lest I lay down and die of a sorts. Many times, something of the subject of “women’s silence”, “women’s roles”, “women’s restrictions”, etc. stare me in the face and I must make a response however small. Since I am not married and have no children to occupy myself with, don’t care all that much for cooking (although I will still on occasion contribute), it becomes even worse. And to top it all off my spiritual gifts are speaking forth the Word of God.
You might have guessed that at one time I became somewhat angry with God. LOL We had a real ‘todo’ over the whole mess. But God persisted that He knew best. And interestingly, I am happiest in life when I gladly exercise my gifts even in the face of resistance. Of course, its been a big learning curve as to when, how, where, with whom, and how much to say.
believer3,
I like your thoughts. As women we are much more affected than men are who may not be discriminated against because of their gender as far as teaching in the church. If we say nothing we can be guilty of burying our talent in the ground and returning not even the interest to the Lord. But in order not to be contentious, there are times that we do say nothing. It is a tight rope that we walk as women, but as long as we do everything out of a motive of love and concern, whether we speak out or keep quiet to keep the peace, in certain circumstances, we put the Lord Jesus’ interests and his body’s health first.
We’ve had multiple power-outs over the last couple of days. I discovered my surge protection, battery back-up unit isn’t working. Bought a new one today but haven’t had time to connect it so, with the last power-out, I lost everything I’d prepared to submit as a comment here. I will take this as a sign not to be so wordy and will say only this:
I have no dispute with Kevin over the need to behave lovingly (with ‘agape’ love) towards one another however I do want to draw attention to Hosea 4:6a, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge”. (RSV)
Love by itself is not enough. Knowledge by itself is not enough. We need both. We need to offer love that is informed by knowledge. We need to offer knowledge with love. To do either we first need to make sure that what we think we know is actually true.
> I have no dispute with Kevin
Keywords for “I have a dispute.”
Thank you, Janice. I’m really sorry you lost a carefully crafted comment. I know EXACTLY how hard and frustrating that can be.
And I know how hard it can be to argue with a post that says, “Be nice.” I think I sense that tension in more than one of the comments I’ve read so far. If the post itself weren’t so nice, it might be easier to get a crowbar under it and really talk about what it’s like to be a woman and be slapped down in a church.
But it’s important to talk about real life.
You quote Hosea 4:6a (which is quite kind. Thank you for bringing scripture into the conversation.) If I can, I’d like to add a couple more verses to the discussion from Hosea 4 (NIV)
… There is no faithfulness, no love, no acknowledgment of God in the land. There is only cursing, lying and murder, stealing and adultery; they break all bounds, and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
The accusation in scripture is never that doctrine is insufficient. The accusation is always that the people do some act that is unambiguously wrong because they believe a wrong doctrine. Knowledge has failed, but the accusation is that love has failed. Ignorance may have mislead the people into that failure, but the failure is always one of action.
… they have deserted the Lord to give themselves to prostitution, to old wine and new, which take away the understanding of my people. They consult a wooden idol and are answered by a stick of wood.
The people are destroyed by a lack of knowledge, but the sign of their destruction is unambiguous. They were not merely lacking the fine points of the law. They lacked the knowledge of God Himself. They had no clue who He was or what it was to worship Him. They worshipped idols and imagined vainly that God would be pleased.
At the (a href=”http://www.peaceandsafety.com/events/1″>PASCH Conference this year I heard the story of a church that changed. An abused woman was told to stay with her abusing husband, and it predictably destroyed her. She told her own story along with another woman, the one who had delivered the awful verdict of the church to her. Those two women were confronted with the unambiguous wrong of how that body of believers was victimizing the victim, and they began to work within their own church to correct that error. Over the course of several years, those two women effected a complete change in that one church, and they have since extended their ministry outside to other churches. They are now leading other churches into wise response to abuse.
The key points of the story are the unambiguously wrong act of brothers and the years the women spent patiently pressing for real justice. Real victory does not come overnight.
Knowledge is important, but people don’t change because they are exposed to facts. People change when their hearts are touched by injustice. What’s more, there is a risk in trying overly hard to convince people who sincerely and lovingly disagree. If you discourage these people, you both lose. They lose the ability to keep hearing you, and you lose credibility you will need when real injustice comes.
A site like this is a great place to hone knowledge, but it can change nothing. Change only comes when flesh and blood meet over real injustice. This site gives us an opportunity to hear our brothers’ and sisters’ arguments and to try out different approaches to see which ones extend the conversation and which one end it. That’s important because once the real opportunity to address real injustice presents itself, we want to extend that conversation as profitably as possible. Here is where we learn that likening the Complementarian position to the old slavery position ends the discussion unprofitably. And here is where we learn that illuminating the way Paul worked with women extends the conversation, so that when a woman is being silenced in a church we can keep the discussion alive and helpful.
My church knows my position. My leaders and my brothers and sisters know I’ve attended conferences on how churches might help end abuse. My leaders and my brothers and sisters have heard me argue for allowing a woman to teach. (They do allow women to teach men in my church.) My leaders and my brothers and sisters have watched me counsel a couple through to a divorce with fairness and safety for both hurting people.
My point is not to quit struggling, but to struggle face-to-face and only against true injustice. Where those who disagree are acting justly, they deserve to be treated as we hope they’ll treat us. It’s only because cyberspace doesn’t reveal injustice, I’ve lost the heart to invest in cyberpersuasion.
And now I hope I’ve not muddied things worse with this long comment. Thank you again, Janice, for opening the subject a little more deeply.
Kevin,
I’m glad you are in a loving church. If you are getting the help you need to stay strong in Christ there, that’s where you belong. I’m glad you found such a church as that.
I don’t attend complimentarian churches anymore, even the loving ones. It’s hard as a woman to go to a church where the use of one’s talents are restricted because of gender. When I was younger I could tolerate it better. But as I got older the years of constant restrictions added up to a lot of frustration, and now as a middle age person I just can’t handle the it anymore.
Enjoy your church and take all you can from it. It’s hard to find a good fit in a church, but you seem to have done it.
I think there is a time to be gracious and to not talk about differences of Biblical interpretation in the realm of gender, and then there are other times when the rocks will cry out if we don’t. It depends on the circumstance and the situation.
I really like your post, codepoke, because you illustrate perfectly how you feel the Spirit’s leading to be silent. My latest blog post on my personal blog is the exact opposite…haha…but I actually, in real life, usually don’t feel that it’s appropriate to discuss my differences of opinion about this issue.
At first, I wanted to talk about it all the time. I thought others would be as excited as I was. Ha. NOT EVEN. But there’s also something annoying about anyone who walks around with one pet issue that they’ve got to insert into every conversation. I think that might also have described me sometimes during my initial paradigm shift into egalitarianism. Ahem.
*wincing grin, while batting eyelashes innocently*
I am a lot better about NOT talking now. Including during some times when I want to talk about it more than anything (like recently when a conservative comp pastor friend and I were chatting and he brought up a comp book they were studying in their church…it was hard to keep my lips together, but I did it, glory be to God!).
Why? Because I’ve noticed that it very rarely produces positive results. And the same is true for when a comp opinion is forced onto me when I’m not interested in hearing it. If I don’t appreciate it, surely other people don’t either when I’m foisting my egal thoughts onto them.
The only exceptions would be those intimate conversations with friends and loved ones when we are all being humble and gracious and really wanting to explore the issues together.
Janice, what a wonderful comment!!
Kevin,
I’m glad you are no longer willing to split a church over egalitarianism. We do need to love those who disagree with our opinions.
I may not attend complementarian churches anymore, but I still appreciate many of those churches. There’s one I can think of that works with husbands not to use pornography. If that doesn’t show love towards women, I don’t know what does. I really appreciate their efforts in this area.
Hey, I just released some comments from the Moderated file—sorry about that, I didn’t know they were in there! Anyone following this conversation may want to scroll above and see them. Sorry, folks!
I have heard that Jesus was full of grace and truth and it is important that the grace part came first and we are to follow that example. It is the grace part that allows the truth part to come in, this is ALWAYS the way it has been in my life, why should I think it is different for others?
I am LEARNING to be more gracious and lead with grace, I look back at some of my attempts at truth first and shudder, as God was not glorified.
I remember a Christian counselor who was trying his best to get me to see that I was a part of the problem. I made a statement that I thought was ridiculous and he just stayed SILENT. He saw that I was not yet ready for the truth, so he did not give it to me, as I would not have accepted it. There was a very real power of the Holy Spirit in that silence and I am grateful.
Kevin,
Thanks for a really fine post. You are a living example of the value of diversity of marriage framework within a single congregation.
An egal couple in a complementarian setting is a powerful witness to the hierarchy of truth – that is, to the fact that adherence to 1 Cor 13 is of far greater importance than to whom ultimate authority is delegated and under what conditions.
Regardless of framework, the principle of mutual consent will be given wide latitude once 1 Cor 13, Rom 12, and Phil 2 are internalized in a marriage. You testify that such is occurring among the members of your complementarian church.
Since I am a pastor, I doubt that is true in all cases – nor did you imply that it was. I know it is not the case in my congregation, in which the younger than 70 crowd conceives of marriage in egal terms. Framework is not a guarantee of much of anything though it certainly pays to avoid extreme forms of any framework.
> the value of diversity of marriage framework
A very nice point, John. I just read a comment by believer333 on http://equalitycentral.com/ that we try to limit diversity because of our limited understanding, so maybe we’ve found a spot of common ground here.
> the younger than 70 crowd conceives of marriage in egal terms
Haha!
Yes, my church has two very distinct crowds. 70% or more of the marriages in my church of the greater than 50 crowd, and the rest are mostly of the less than 30 crowd. It does make for a very natural diversity. The openness of Christians has made for a real opportunity, and I think everyone is doing a pretty exciting job of taking that opportunity.
> Framework is not a guarantee
How I wish it were. But no, life seems to require constant dedication to the hard work of loving, even when all the pieces are in their assigned places. Whatever those might be.
Thanks, John.
John,
I can agree with you, except in your last phrase, where you claim “it certainly pays to avoid extreme forms of any framework.”
I do not think too much mutuality in an egal marriage can be a bad thing, so I cannot figure out why you think it might be.
Kevin,
Once again, thank you for your post.
Hi Don,
As you know, we do not see eye to eye on mutuality.
I believe that healthy marriages and healthy institutions in general are characterized by an interwoven fabric of hierarchy and mutuality.
The exercise of authority *on behalf of,* delegation, and chains of command are important in marriage as in other contexts.
So yes, there is such a thing as too much mutuality, when that becomes the sole principle on which a marriage is founded.
Domain-based hierarchy in marriage is praised in scripture. In Proverbs 31, the praised arrangement is one in which the husband trusts his wife, not micromanages her; she supervises the household, and is a businesswoman to boot. Healthy egal marriages are not built on mutuality alone, but on respect for distinct domains of control determined by cultural default (with or without an appeal to scripture) and perceived levels of expertise.
What happens when the husband or wife on moral grounds needs to overrule the desire of the other? This is a difficult thing to do in any framework. Mutuality does not provide the solution when this is a necessity.
As you know, we have discussed this in greater depth on earlier threads.
What happens when the husband or wife on moral grounds needs to overrule the desire of the other? This is a difficult thing to do in any framework. Mutuality does not provide the solution when this is a necessity.
Hi John,
I think this is a salient issue; it goes beyond even the idea of a “tie-breaker” to the very basis of relating. I like to think of mutuality as a mutual attitude of cooperation, though of course this does not always exist between any two people or to the same degree at any given time.
To me, finding the solution lies in dealing with the dynamics of the relating itself. Decisions that affect both parties in a marriage must be satisfactory to both; if they’re not, I think the reason goes deeper than gender roles, domains, or tie-breaking influence. I think of the boundaries as being more personal than either gender- or domain-based.
John,
No one is saying mutuality is the sole principle on which a marriage is founded, there are many principles of the Kingdom that need to be imported into marriage. Mutuality is merely one of them.
When one is on a question on moral grounds, the answer is (or should be), do not violate your conscience. It might be that one’s conscience is flawed, and getting help can help to see if that is the case. For example, someone might have been taught X is wrong and as long as they think this is true, it is true for them; but it might be the case that X is not wrong. As believers, we already know that the stronger in faith should defer to the weaker.
Bonnie raises good points, on a team like an (egal) marriage any decision that affects both needs to be agreed upon by both, either explicitly or implicitly. This can even be by one party or the other deciding to submit to the other in this area. It might be less important to them. A problem can arise when it is not voluntary, then it can be abusive. And to deny it can be abusive is to add to the abuse. This was part of Sue’s concerns as I see them.
“No one is saying mutuality is the sole principle on which a marriage is founded, there are many principles of the Kingdom that need to be imported into marriage. Mutuality is merely one of them.”
Excellent point Don! Life is not simple. Humans are complicated beings. Put two complicated beings together of the opposite gender and things can either get more complicated or easier or both.
)
There are many skills that both men and women should focus on improving if they wish to improve their marriage such as : patience, forgiveness, listening, yielding, waiting, honesty, and even saying yes or no appropriately. In addition we often need the help of others such as good Christian counselors (most often that is NOT the pastor), prayer partners, and bible scholars/teachers/pastors to help us find wisdom.